Peter Crone on Freedom From the Prisons of the Subconscious Mind

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Katie: Hello and welcome to ďThe Wellness Mama Podcast.Ē Iím Katie from wellnessmama.com and wellnesse.com. And this episode was a really, really fun one to record. I was deeply appreciative of being able to record it and of my guest today. Iím here with Peter Crone, who has a fascinating story, and does a lot of amazing work around subconscious beliefs, past trauma, patterns that come from childhood. And since sharing some of my trauma, Iíve gotten a lot of follow-up questions related to tangible things that can help, which is why I wanted to share Peter. A little bit about his story, his mother passed away when he was seven, and his father when he was 17. And for him, this led to a fear of loss, especially in relationships, which was triggered when his first romantic relationship ended.

And he faced a lot of sleepless nights worried about this until he realized that the answer to a lot of his problems was found in three simple words, which were ďI donít knowĒ. And in that, he realized that the nature of life is uncertain. And he went on to explore how the mind influences our lives throughÖ And now, he does that through his work with professional athletes, entertainers, all kinds of global organizations. And I really was excited to have him on today to challenge some of those subconscious patterns that express in our adult lives. And also, to really delve into being conscious of our language, and our patterns in interactions with our children so that perhaps they can enter adult life with fewer of these patterns to begin with.

Fascinating interview, starting with a story of how he was rear-ended by a drunk driver and ended up changing this manís life, all the way to how childhood experiences can lead to physical health problems. We touch on topics like uncertainty, imagination, happiness, so much more. Really, really fascinating episode. Heís so well-spoken, and I think you will really, really enjoy with this one. So with that, letís join Peter. Peter, welcome. Thanks for being here.

Peter: Thank you so much for having me. Nice to connect.

Katie: I am very excited to chat with you. I think ever since sharing kind of my own inner emotional journey recently, Iíve gotten a lot of questions related to that, and I think youíre gonna have some wonderful insight today. And before we jump into the specifics of that, I have a note in my show notes that you were once rear-ended by someone, and followed him, and pulled him over, and he was drunk. And then you actuallyÖseems like a really cool story of how that played out. I think it also speaks to your personality. So can you tell us a little bit about that story?

Peter: I can, that was a while ago, but it was actually a very touching story. I was actually on my way to a date and I was running a little bit late. And I donít know how it happened, but I was just on the 405 in L.A., and I missed my exit. And Iím somebody who loves to honor my word. And certainly, if Iím on the way to meet a date, I wanna respect time. And so, I missed my Situs Slot Online Terbaik exit, went to the next one, turned around. And so, now Iím a little bit heavier with the right foot trying to make up time, and Iím probably doing about 85, which I donít advise for the kids at home, but I wanted to try and get my date on time. And out of nowhere, I just suddenly get rear-ended. So the fact that a car has gone into the back of me obviously means that theyíve got to be doing a serious speed. Sorry, my landline never rings. Anyway, so I donít know, is that obnoxiously annoying? Is that okay? Okay.

So, anyway, as I said, Iím doing 85 because Iím trying to make up time. And then the fact that I get rear-ended, clearly, heís got to be doing more. So Iím like, act like not what you expect on the highway. So Iíd, obviously, check my rearview mirror. Fortunately, it just kind of nudged me forward, but that was about it. And then he suddenly comes around the side of me and takes off. And, you know, Iíve got a lot of horsepower in my car. You canít just hit someone and take off. So I follow him. He tries to get off at the next exit, which fortunately, was my exit. And heís trying to get past cars. And thereís a little bit of a chase. But fortunately, he then pulled in the very first next turn, which was just like some deli, and was in the parking lot. And I made a point of getting out of the car very quickly. So I was first so he could hear my voice. You never know in L.A., like, whoís packing heat, and, like, the guy just hit me, you know, so he doesnít know what Iím gonna say.

So I just immediately tried to just sort of disarm the situation by saying, ďHey, everythingís okay. My name is Peter.Ē And so, he got out and we started chatting. I said, ďHey, dude, are you okay?Ē And he said, ďYeah.Ē And he said, ďYou know, Iím sorry.Ē I said, ďYou canít just hit people and take off, you know, letís just check the back of my car.Ē Fortunately, there really wasnít too much damage. And I said, ďWe got to trade insurance.Ē And then at that point, I could tell, you know, he was a little bit not quite with it. I said, ďHave you been drinking?Ē And he said, ďYeah.Ē And I said, ďOkay, can you get someone to come and pick you up? I canít let you get back in the car.Ē And so, he called his wife and weíre trading papers. And as heís pulling out his insurance from his wallet, a ring falls out. And hits the ground, and heís, you know, scrambling to try and find out. I said, ďIs that your wedding band?Ē Heís like, ďYeah.Ē And then, I could see him sort of look solemn. And heís like, you know, he said, Things arenít going well right now.Ē And I said, ďIím sorry to hear that.Ē

And, anyway, we go chatting. And I said, ďLook, can you please call me and let me know that you got home safe later?Ē So, he did, you know, I was on my date, whatever. And, you know, heís just so appreciative. Heís like, ďI donít know who you are. Youíre like a guardian angel.Ē He said, like, ďYou know, someone else would have arrested me or call the police.Ē And he could be in jail, because heís, you know, DUI. And so, anyway, we met actually a week later for lunch. And, you know, just so I could support him, and he was telling me like, heís drinking about 70 units of beer a week, you know, so like, 10 beers every day. And he was just coming back from a Super Bowl party in Vegas but he was nervous because he had to get to work, and things arenít good with hisÖyou know, itís just a lot of stuff going on.

So, yeah, it was just a very touching story because I helped him to see, you know, why he was drinking and, obviously, that wasnít supporting his dreams and desires. And he and his wife got back together. They ended up buying a house and he quit drinking. So, you know, I donít suggest people to do that. Like, Iím a bit of an anomaly in my ability to help people, but for me, it was a very obviously gratifying story.

Katie: Thatís so beautiful, and I loveÖbecause of your perspective in that situation. Someone actually recently asked me if you had to get hit, like, if your car was gonna get hit, would you rather be a friend or a complete stranger? And my first instinct was I think Iíd rather a complete stranger because many of us leave childhood with maybe having gotten in trouble for making mistakes and, like, that would be very severely potentially triggered in a situation like that if someone hits you, and Iím like, what a beautiful opportunity to show someone love because they would have been in this emotional state. And obviously not an ideal situation, you donít ever want your car to get hit, but I love that you did that. And you were able to help someone and show love in a situation when many people would have reacted with just anger. And like I said, I think that speaks to your personality and is certainly illuminating of your life work, which is what weíre here to chat about today. So, to start broad and kind of dial down from there, you talk a lot about freedom, and weíre gonna get into that concept. But what are some of the blocks, the things that keep us from having freedom in our life, and maybe as part of that a definition of what you view as freedom?

Peter: Gosh, thereís so many blocks, but I mean, predominantly, without sounding too esoteric or philosophical, the main thing that blocks freedom is who you think you are, right? So the persona, the personality, the identity, people are basically constructs of language based on what theyíve inherited over time, what they heard mom or dad say, and what teachers said, and you canít do this, and youíre not that, and before you know it, youíre an accumulation of all of these different narratives that become the constraint to the freedom that I assert you naturally are. So it really isÖyou know, one of my jokes I tell people, I donít help the person, I get rid of the person. You know, which doesnít sound too compassionate, but itís the greatest gift I can give anyone is toÖyou know, that quintessential, how do I get out of my own way? So thatís really the main obstacle to freedom is the fact that you think youíre someone and that someone you think you are is a compilation of limitations and constraints.

Katie: Thatís such an interesting concept. And Iím curious where those come from. Like, I can think in my own life of, obviously, some of those seem to come from, like you said, parental expectation. But it seems like my own journey the last couple of years is realizing how much at least I didnít know for a very long time and still am learning who I actually am, and where Iím actually going. It seems like we enter adulthood often with a picture in our head of what our life is supposed to look like that maybe we didnít really form. I think maybe we didnít get to paint that picture often. But can you speak more to the roots of some of these and where these originally come from?

Peter: Yeah, for sure. I mean, you know, everything stems from childhood, but thereís a subtle distinction, subtle but profound, which is, you know, people are under the impression itís because of what mom did, or dad said, or what a high school teacher, you know, in terms of berating someone at school, that event is the cause of someoneís constraint, right? Thatís traditional psychiatry, or psychology, or when someone is helping us, even life coaches and therapists listen to someoneís story and go, ďOh, well, yes, itís because, you know, your dad said, blah, blah, blah, and thatís why you think youíre not good enough,Ē right? Itís sort of a very cause and effect, simplistic way, I think, of trying to reconcile why somebody has these deeper fears and insecurities.

The way I look at it, which I assert is one of the distinguishing parts about my work, is that actually those constraints were there already. So this is where it becomes a little bit more esoteric, but Iím asserting that we arrive as these spiritual beings and we are confined by these beliefs of inadequacy, and security, or scarcity. And then life is simply the catalyst to trigger them, to turn them on so that then they become, you know, active versus dormant. So it looks like, yes, because my mum favored my older sibling and gave them a lot more attention that therefore I felt I wasnít as special. And then there was the compensation for that of being a people pleaser or going, you know, to work too hard to become a perfectionist, always trying to garner, you know, the love and affection that I never got when my oldest sibling got.

But I would say itís not because mom gave the extra attention to the sibling, itís really that, yes, that may have been happening, but you curated that so that you could look at what you arrived with, which is the deepest seeding belief for you werenít as valuable. So thatís where life to me is that gift that will expose where weíre actually confined. So, it is in the formative years, but not in the manner that most people interpret.

Katie: Can you share may be an example of your own life? I know from your bio that you lost both parents at a pretty young age. Can you share maybe how that impacted you? And maybe also some of the common ones that you see, youíve worked with so many people, but some of these common constraints that come up?

Peter: Yes, I mean, even the way you phrased the question, right? Like, you said that I lost my parents. So that was the constraint, to begin with, is I overheard or heard over and over equally people saying, ďIím so sorry for your loss.Ē And, ďOh no, you know, thatís awful to lose your parents so young.Ē And that constant narrative bought into the idea that I lost something. So that was one of my personal obstacles and constraints to reconcile and overcome was the illusion of loss, right? I didnít lose my parents. I wasnít in a shopping mall and couldnít find them. They died, right? And that may sound kind of cold and callous, but itís not. Itís like, I adore my parents, I love my parents, I missed my parents, and I didnít lose them. Because if we subscribe to the conversation that weíve lost something, then what does that say about us is that now Iím missing something. Iím incomplete, right? So then thereís gonna be all the compensatory patterns of, ďWell, Iíve got to do more to overcome the feeling that deep down Iím missing something.Ē Right? Thatís the illusion.

So, for many years, to answer your question, that was something that really bugged me, you know, like, in a way that I didnít even know, it was so ingrained that the first time I met this girl who I thought I fell in love with, as best as I knew what love was, you know, in your mid-20s, which is, most people donít know what love is in their mid-50s. But anyway, thatís a totally different conversation. But anyway, so, you know, as soon as I met this girl that I thought was, ďpotentially the one,Ē not that I ever assigned that kind of audacious title to her, but, you know, it was a special connection. Then, of course, my survival mechanisms of asking, you know, subconsciously, for me to do everything I could to make sure she doesnít leave me, aka I was fearing her loss, meaning going, you know, then that became fulfilled on, but really, you know, it was just my old deep-seated pattern that hadnít yet been reconciled. So once I saw that I never lost anythingÖitís impossible to lose anything, right? Like, things come and go, certainly in the manifest world. And as it related to my parents, that was clearly their soulsí journey, and equally my soulís journey to have to experience that. So, that was one of my personal ones.

As it relates to common ones, I mean, the most common one that everyone can relate to is the feeling of not being enough, you know, not good enough, not young enough, not thin enough, not rich enough, not pretty enough, not tall enough, like, whatever it is, right, that whole realm of not-enoughness, you know, thatís a real epidemic, you know, versus whatever, the BS that weíre finding right now. So, you know, people are living in that world of, like, real feeling of inadequacy, and itís debilitating for some people, and it can manifest in different ways, you know, either we compensate and have the survival mechanism of becoming a people pleaser, or a perfectionist is one way to try and overcome it, or people can go right into it, which is where oftentimes they will just beÖyou know, they will completely debilitate themselves and ruin their lives through drugs and addiction, and maybe end up homeless.

Ironically, the same core belief is at the center of both personalities. One is compensating and becoming a perfectionist and looks great on the surface, and one bought right into it and ends up on the streets. But from my perspective, even though to the, you know, layperson, they look at someone whoís taking care of themselves, they do well at work, they make money, theyíve got a nice house, theyíre like, well, clearly, theyíre doing better than a homeless person. Thatís the appearance, but I would say energetically, theyíre both still being run by this deep-seated feeling of inadequacy. So, as it relates to the last part of your question, what is freedom? Freedom is the absence of all of that, you know, where there truly is nothing that you are bound by, youíre tapped into your own infinite nature.

Katie: I think youíre right. Thatís probably an almost universalÖof course, Iím projecting because it was my experience, and Iím happy to be as transparent as is helpful in this podcast. I know, I went in the people-pleasing direction, and that achievement, like, direction and had to make perfect grades, and be in every club and achieve, and thatís how I expressed that. And in many ways, this is something Iím still learning. But when people come to you, it sounds like this is one that you encounter a lot in people, what are some of the steps to begin unpacking that? Because it seems like these would be things potentially rooted deep in the subconscious. Itís not like weíre consciously understanding those patterns. So how do you help people start to understand and what are the steps of that look like?

Peter: So I think, you know, first of all, like you said, you just got to have a certain degree of self-reflections about the look at yourself and be responsible for the fact that, ďWow, that really is something that drives me.Ē And it may manifest in different ways, right? Someone might be exhausted that could even lead to physiological imbalances, like Hashimoto disease, or their adrenals are shot. But really, itís still stemming from this feeling of inadequacy that then youíre always trying to compensate for, so people are just absolutely, you know, driving themselves into the ground. So, you know, it may not beÖlike you said, youíre not walking around introducing yourself, and say, ďHi, my name is Katie. Iím not good enough.Ē But, you know, it might be, ďIím Katie and, you know, how can I make sure that it looks like Iím really paying attention?Ē And like, that may be one of the mechanisms you use that looks like youíre doing a good job and youíre being a good girl, right, which is like one of the ways that, as children, we obviously wanna make sure that we donít be perceived as not enough.

So, itís first of all recognizing what are the behavioral adaptations so that you can be responsible for that? And then we wanna reverse engineer and go, okay, well, if we were to look at it objectively, what kind of person would adopt that behavior, right? So you can almost look at it okay, well, if youíre looking at yourself as a people pleaser, what must that person think about themselves if they feel the need to be a people pleaser, right? Because itís a compensation. It takes a lot of energy, but what I call efforting, people are always efforting. Theyíre grinding, right? But the grind is the mechanism by which weíre trying to overcome what we already believe about ourselves, which is why fundamentally it becomes futile. Because if you think youíre not enough, and then one of the ways that you adapt to that is being a people pleaser, then what youíre actually doing is youíre just reinforcing the fact that youíre not enough, right? So youíre not going anywhere. So thatís the first thing for you to recognize.

And then part of this, sort of, proprietary method of my work is that I will ask people to investigate the validity of that, right? Once they can start to see what is that subconscious constraint, then weíll bury down and Iíll literally say, like, if I were to cut you open, am I gonna find, you know, a label inside of you that says, ďKatie, sheís not good enough?Ē I mean, it becomes preposterous, and people are like, ďWell, no,Ē and Iím like, ďGreat. So now you can start to see itís not an actual truth.Ē And if itís not an absolute truth, then yes, itís nice to find the evidence of where did it start? Well, dad said this, mom did that, my sibling did this, an ex-boyfriend said blah, blah, blah, whatever, thereís gonna be all of the usual suspects that reinforce that view of yourself. But then we can see the fact that itís not an absolute truth.

And so, then my work is about dissolution. So in the absence of that feeling of not being enough, and that belief that youíre not enough, how would you feel? Now, everybody immediately is like, ďOh, my God. God, I feel so relaxed. I feel free.Ē Iím like, there you go, thatís my product, right? So I donít solve problems, I dissolve problems is what I tell people. So itís removing the constraint by recognizing the contributing factors to it, seeing the absolute falsehood of it, and then discovering what would become available to you when you see that thatís not a truth, and itís not who you are. Itís, you know, the ultimate liberation.

Katie: Do you ever find people who, kind of, maybe want to hold on to that, even when they start logically understanding? Because Iíve always also thought, you know, that idea of having is evidence of wanting, even if itís in a subconscious level, and our subconscious does these things to protect us. Our subconscious isnít trying to harm us. These areÖlike you said, youíre compensating, but itís for a reason. Do you find people ever run into trouble letting go of that, even once they understand it?

Peter: A hundred percent. I mean, it just depends, there are multiple factors, you know, so someoneís readiness, you know, in terms of like, letting go of something, it seems completely nonsensical, but one of the main priorities of the ego or this idea of ourselves as to be right, right? So to your point, people are holding on to it not because they want to but really they donít know who they would be without it, right? It sort of defines people, the woe is me. And when people say, ďOh, itís too good to be true,Ē or, ďThat never happens to me,Ē like, these arenít things they really want. They donít want the guy to not pick them, or they donít want their, you know, colleague to get the promotion and they donít, but it helps them to reinforce their own narrative of inadequacy. And thatís where it becomes really insidious and so defeating is that the ego is actually more committed to being right than being fulfilled, right? This is the madness of my work that Iíve seen over the decades is like, wow, you know, people are actually fighting for their limitations.

Now, by virtue of my work and how precise I can be when I work with people, there may be a little bit of resistance at the beginning, but, you know, theyíre coming to work with me, they usually are pretty ready to get over it, theyíre exhausted, their life doesnít work, theyíre unfulfilled, theyíve got sickness, their relationships donít work, you know, thereís a myriad of things that lead them feeling completely unsatisfied that has led them to work with me or seek my courses or whatever. And so, thatís where people are ready to let go.

The other thing that becomes tricky is age, you know, because the older somebody becomes, the more ingrained those neural networks are, right, so the more defined someoneís character is. If you look at a child, and as a mother of six, you obviously look at children every day, but, you know, they can get themselves into all sorts of incredible positions on the floor, right? While theyíre playing, you know, whatever theyíre doing, like theyíre just like, so nimble, theyíre so flexible. And to me, that is sort of a direct correlation of the fact that mentally and emotionally theyíre very available, which is, of course, why kids are very gullible, which is equally why I think whatís going on in the world right now is pretty abhorrent in the way that children are being treated, you know, the whole masks and now theyíre trying to inject them with toxins and blah, blah, blah.

But when you get to the point of seeing somebody whoís a lot older than what happens physiologically, you start to see the rigidity kick in, right? Like, especially when you get to the 60s, 70s, 80s, you start to see the poor posture, which is really an adaptive sitting position, right? So they got tight hamstrings, and tight flexors, and tight chest where everything starts to be, you know, concaved forward. And equally, psychologically, they tend to be pretty stubborn. Like, so we can start to see, wow, thatís interesting, thereís a real correlation between mind and body in terms of like somebodyís freedom and flexibility.

So thatís the other component I have to consider and factor in is like, when Iím working with someone whoís in their 20s, and 30s, you know, thereís gonna be a certain degree of more mobility in the way that they can start to become a different person. When Iím sitting down within an executive or a multi-billionaire whoís in his late 60s, thereís gonna probably be a little bit more resistance, you know, because they know what they know, and theyíve proved it over years, even if what they know is completely deleterious to their life, you know, itís still what they wanna fight for. So those are the predominant factors, yeah.

Katie: And it does seem youíre right. I think those things can become part of our identity. Speaking from experience, I used to have Hashimotoís, and donít now, but when I did, it was part of my identity. And I spoke about it a lot and I kind of integrated that as a part of me. And I think thereís also that human desire to be right. And thatís fascinating that you brought that up as well. You mentioned a couple ways that, obviously, past interactions can inform our future interactions as well. And is there a distinction in your work between maybe more of those childhood patterns that we wouldnít think of as trauma necessarily, or if we did think of them as like little t trauma, versus working with people who have an acute identified big T type of trauma and how that plays out?

Peter: The distinction between the two of like little t and big T? Thatís the question?

Katie: Yeah, and how thoseÖdo they work out differently in your work? Or are they kind of a similar process?

Peter: Got it. The process is the same, right? The degree to which somebody maybe needs to be held, or loved, or seen can vary, right? So the extent to which the trauma is we could say, you know, using your term capital T, like itís sexual abuse, itís physical abuse, is oftentimes simply the degree to which it becomes more believable for that person, right? Whatever it is, theyíre believing that Iím worthless, right? Now, somebody with a small t may still have the distinction, Iím worthless, but it was more in their neighborhood, maybe they were one of the poorer families. So they werenít being hit, they werenít being sexually abused, but their kids got all the fancy toys and the nice bikes and, you know, this particular person dealing with a feeling of worthlessness got the hand me down bike, you know, from an older brother or something.

So the mechanism is the same, the degree to which the belief is ingrained is different. So if thereís a capital T, there tends to have to be a little bit more of a visceral experience with the work, meaning, there may truly be some sobbing, like, not likeÖthe person with little t might have shed a tear and go, ďOh, my God, Iíve done that for 40 years.Ē And they start to, you know, just audit their life and realize how many opportunities theyíve let go or relationships that didnít work because they didnít allow themselves to be valued by people, you know, and that can be sad, and they might shed a tear, and have some remorse for their life, even though thatís not their fault, right? This is all subconscious. So thereís no guilt or shame around it.

Conversely, the person has had real trauma, you know, it would benefit them in the healing process beyond the psychological understanding, which is what I teach them, invariably, there is a much bigger release, right? There could be body shakes, they might be nauseous, they might actually find that, you know, they just feel like they donít wanna go out for a few days. Like, thereís a little bit more to process on the physical level too. So thatís usually the big difference that I see.

Katie: Got it. And in my research of your work, Iíve seen you talk about the first step of the healing process is acceptance. Can you elaborate on that and kind of how you work with people in that, in learning acceptance? I would guess, even alone, that might be a thing thatís potentially tough for some people.

Peter: Very tough, you know, especially even in language, you hear people say, ďI shouldnít have done that,Ē or, ďThey shouldnít have done this.Ē And the same way that we use linguistics, thereís this sort of energy of judgment as though things, from our perspective, you know, were wrong, right? And Iím not denying that there are some things in the world right now that I certainly donít condone. Thereís a lot of vile behaviors, but to subjectively say that shouldnít have happened or I shouldnít have done that, then what happens is now weíre in this position of resistance to life. So wherever thereís resistance in life, there is going to be suffering. That is an inextricable connection. So if someone doesnít get to the place of acceptance, and thatís why Iím saying the first position, the first place to start, certainly in any, like, profound healing is you just got to accept where youíre at and whatís happened.

When people donít complete or, like, fully allow their history to be the way it is, then theyíre carrying that conceptual baggage, right? Itís like, ďOh, well, that shouldnít have happened, and that was terrible, and my mom and this, and my dad and that, my ex-husband or my ex-wife,Ē da, da, da, you know, now youíre actually in conflict with your history. And thereís no reconciliation from that because guess why? You canít change it, right? Like, history is history. Everybodyís past is the way it is. Thatís why one of my most common quotes that will be, you know, in my upcoming book that will eventually come out at some point, but, you know, there are a lot of people kindly share on the social media platforms is I say, ďWhat happened happened, and couldnít have happened any other way because it didnít.Ē You know, and thatís become one of my most popular quotes because people find so much relief from it realizing that they equally have had some sort of judgment about their history, and they were in, you know, non-acceptance.

If you donít accept where you are, then, you know, thereís nowhere else to go because youíre still holding onto something. So thatís why acceptance is pivotal. And yes, itís not easy. I mean, because like you said, even for yourself, Hashimotoís, you were somewhat defined by it, whatever it gave you as some sort of payoff, right? You got a little extra attention, you had a little bit of a get out of jail free card because you could use your fatigue as an excuse for things and, you know, human egos are slippery, theyíll come up with all sorts of justifications, right? So, but until such time you accepted and then become responsible for the circumstances of your life, thereís no power to move forward with anything else.

Katie: And you mentioned the word judgment. And that seems to be a thing that comes up also for a lot of people, the fear of judgment, or the feeling of judgment from other people and how they played that out in their lives. How do you handle that with people that you work with?

Peter: Quite simply, I say no oneís ever judging you apart from yourself. Theyíre just saying something, right? So, you know, again, I try to simplify things so that people really get it, and itís very liberating when you realize that, you know, the only person thatís actually been judging you in the form of harm is yourself, right? Again, one of my quotes, I write in quotes, again, these will, you know, be in my book, I say that, ďOther peopleís words can only hurt you if you already believe them.Ē So itís not that I enjoy judgment. Itís not that I want people to say Peter Crone this and that in some sort of, you know, malicious or hostile way. Itís obviously much nicer to hear people say nice things and have beautiful, loving energy, which I try to promote for people to be kind and respectful. But even if someone were to say something derogatory, itís not that I wouldnít look at it and take some ownership, you know, maybe I did do something that offended someone, in which case I can be responsible and apologize, but Iím not gonna take it on like thatís who I am. Thereís no self-judgment, Iím human, and I embrace my humanity. Iím doing the best I can. Iím not perfect, and Iím okay with that.

Katie: I love that reframe. And I also read, you talk a lot about uncertainty. And for me with big T trauma, and a feeling of helplessness, one of the things I, like, reacted to strongly for a long time was uncertainty. And I built all these elaborate systems to not have to feel helpless and not have to feel uncertainty. And I love that you talk about how to find freedom in uncertainty. So can you go a little deeper on that and explain what you mean by that?

Peter: Yeah, I mean, even in what you just shared, which obviously isnít much, and I donít know the details of why you felt the need to try and control that, but I can guess, right? So I would say that that lives in the world of where thereís this absence of security, right, a deep feeling. So that if we were to take you back and, you know, walk down memory lane and look at your childhood, my guess is you were in an environment whereÖI donít know the details, and you can share or not, doesnít really matter. But you probably felt as a kid that you werenít very safe, right? Somebody raises a voice, dad comes home late, heís drunk, you donít know whatís gonna happen, maybe you got hit out of nowhere, or there was this sort of mercurial environment for a child, right?

So then what usually happens is the child feels the absence of security, and then theyíre now in this constant state of fight or flight, which would lead to something like Hashimotoís because now youíre exhausted, youíre constantly on surveillance. Itís a very vigilant mindset which over time becomes very deleterious to your own physiology because youíre actually constantly working to try and overcome the deep-seated fear that youíre not gonna be okay, and that ultimately will wear out your tissues, right, depending on how resilient you are. Someoneís built like an ox, theyíll be able to go longer, someone whoís more fragile body, you know, theyíre gonna have diseases at a much younger age.

So thatís what I hear, at least in your story, is that you probably grew up in an environment, and you can confirm it or not, Iím not gonna be offended if Iím not right, but, you know, you would have had some sort of environment that fundamentally as a child left you at times, maybe not all the time, but periodically feeling scared. And so, then youíve done everything you can as an adult to now try to mitigate that, which of course makes sense, but itís just exhausting, right? Now cut to Hashimotoís. So, as a kid, thatís an appropriate response, right? Youíre scared, youíre powerless as a child, but as an adult, you keep looking through the same lens, which is what obviously Iím undoing, you know, that becomes a futile way to live life because youíre basically a 30, 40, 50-year-old, but youíre still looking through the lens of a scared 5-year-old. And thatís why people get sick, and their relationships donít work, and yada, yada, yada.

So with regards to uncertaintyÖso thatís your personal programming, but as it relates to uncertainty, yeahÖOne of my favorite teachings and pillars of my work is to recognize that weíre all clueless. Like, the future is unknown, and none of us know whatís gonna happen. Now, thatís absolute, right? Thatís not gonna change in a week and weíre like, ďHey, guess what? Thereís this like news that just hit the world that all of a sudden we can all figure out whatís going to happen.Ē That is perpetual, right? If you and I have a chat in a week, we wonít know whatís gonna happen tomorrow. If we have a chat in an hourÖsorry, in a year, we wonít know whatís gonna happen tomorrow. If we have a chat in 20 years, we wonítÖright? Thatís just a part of life.

So once you start to really just understand that and then see the futility of the fact that as an ego-mind, weíre always trying to work out whatís happening, then you realize why youíre so freaking tired. Itís like, ďNo, but I told you, you donít know whatís gonna happen.Ē ďYeah, okay, but Iím gonna spend hours, like, when Iím trying to go to sleep at night trying to figure out whatís gonna happen.Ē ďRight, but I just told you, you canít.Ē ďYeah, I know. But Iím stillÖĒ Right? You start to see the absolute nonsensical nature of this and why people need to drink so much. But, anyway, so yeah. So I teach uncertainty, and when you become absolutely, like, intimate with that part of life, meaning you fully embrace it and understand it, then that is where you become free.

Katie: I love that concept. And youíre exactly right, there are definitely instances I can think back to my childhood when I felt unsafe. And then I can think of an acute sexual assault in high school that I felt profoundly unsafe. I think that wasÖ

Peter: There you go, yeah.

Katie: Öyeah, very, like easy to tie that in. I also love that even in my questions youíve, like, pulled up certain parts of the language and, like, really honed in on how I said them, like with loss for your parents. And I think this is a really important key. And Iíd love to hear more from you on this. Iíve realized this kind of just personally over the last couple of years is we seem very intimately connected to the way we talk to ourselves, and the questions we ask ourselves, and the language that we use, and I think often weíre not even aware of that. Itís like how I said about losing your parents, itís a pattern, and itís informed by sympathy or whatever it may be. But talk about how to be more mindful of language and how that has an impact in this realm of our own understanding.

Peter: Yeah, itís a beautiful question. And again, itís probably one of the most important parts of my work, which is understanding the power of language, right? Like I said at the beginning, who are we? Weíre just a compilation of these, you know, narratives that weíve developed over time. What are narratives? Theyíre language, i.e. words. So who people are as walking around is basically a conversation. But for most people, the conversation that theyíre walking around is very disempowering. Itís incredibly limiting. So Iím literally at some level, you know, deprogramming peopleís constraints and giving them the opportunity to create new language. So, that is fundamentally part of my work.

And we see it even now, like, again, I donít wanna harp on about whatís going on, but itís obviously impacting everyone on the planet. You see terms that are thrown around that are sadly intentionally created to push false narratives like an anti-vaxxer, right? Like, thereís no such thing, like that is something that somebody has created, the media with that false narratives to create divisiveness, right? Like, Iím not an anti-vaxxer, as much as Iím like anti-McDonaldís or anti-Coca-Cola, but I donít consume either, you know, Iím pro-health, right? So you see the importance of language, and how it does define us and the choices we make, how we think, how we feel, and then the actions that we take.

So Iím glad that you could recognize, you know, what I would have said one of my superpowers is listening, right? So hearing the way that you spoke, and it is automated, it becomes a script, right? Thereís this just knowingness from the ego that, well, thatís just the way it is. So people are oblivious to the fact that they keep perpetuating the very limitations that they purport to want to be overcoming, not realizing that their language keeps sustaining it. So to the latter part of your question, yeah, you have to start to pay attention to whatís coming out of your mouth. And most people donít. Theyíre sort of like just, you know, walking around on autopilot. Its stimulus and response, stimulus and response, stimulus and response. Somebody says something, and then boom, they just come out with their, sort of, scripted reaction without like really investigating, is that actually how I feel now?

You know, and thatís where you can start to truly dismantle the constraints of your own personality when you start to pay attention to what the drivel is thatís coming out of your mouth and wait, why? Why do I say that about myself? Or, why do I say that about my mother-in-law? Like, is that really true that sheís, you know, a son of a whatever? And itís like, when I say that, then it creates a relationship to her because thatís the way I see her, and then thatís why I get frustrated. But maybe if I got to know her, perhaps sheís just scared, and she feels threatened by me, you know, because her son was her only child, and she felt very close, and now I came into the picture as a woman and married him. And so, she feels like the love that her son used to give her is now being, you know, sort of prioritized towards me. And so, she just feels hurt. So if I understood that dynamic, Iíd have more compassion versus judgment. But if I continue to have a dialogue about that person, then Iím stuck in that relationship, not because of them, but because of the way I relate to them. So this is where I undo so many traumatic experiences that people have by virtue of just the way they sustain them and the stories they tell.

Katie: And that alone seems to be a huge key being able to shift to a state of compassion and understanding toward people and realizing, like you said earlier, no oneís judging you but you, but we assume often that they are. It also seems like a lot of these things weíre talking about live in the subconscious largely until weíre aware of them. I know in talk therapy, thatís something thatís often discussed is youíre dealing more with the conscious, and thereís limitations there. And thatís why some people donít find very much success in just talk therapy because itís that part that weíre aware of versus the part thatís driving the part that weíre aware of. But Iím curious how you work through, kind of, the constraints of the subconscious and help people get to that awareness?

Peter: No, itís beautiful that youíre aware of that. And yes, Iíve had people who have been in therapy for two decades and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars, and they come for one session, and theyíre like, ďWow, I got more out of this like hour-and-a-half than I did for like, you know, hundreds of hours because we went deep down into whatís driving the Ďsuperficial problemsí.Ē Like, humans are under the impression that they have their issues and their problems, but to me, theyíre symptoms of deeper constructs, right? So, the way I work is, again, just through my listening, Iím able to hear where people are basically lying to themselves, doesnít make them bad people, but theyíre saying whatever theyíre saying, like even your question asking me about the loss of my parents, itís not a bad question, and certainly not like in any way, you know, youíre not being derogatory or hostile. Itís just, like, a simple question. But I could help you then all of a sudden see itís an inaccurate way to phrase it, right?

So I have that capacity when someone comes to me with their anxiety, their depression, their relationship issue, you know, their sickness, whatever it is that theyíre dealing with, then I can reverse engineer that and take it back to whatís actually going on, because Iíve delineated what, you know, my assertion are these 10 fundamental prisons that we live in, in the subconscious. So my brain now because I devised the whole formula system of sort of somewhat, you know, wakening beyond these constraints, I can immediately hear in the way someone speaks, whatever their problem is, which one are usually two or three of those primary subconscious constraints is actually driving their life. And thatís where Iíll take it backwards, help them see, ďWow, that started when I was 3, 5, 8,Ē and then got reinforced, like you said, sexual assault in college, like was just built on top of what you were already feeling. So now youíve just reinforced that feeling of the absence of security, and then you have the compensation for it. So then I take it back to, ďOkay, letís correlate the events of your life in your childhood, and letís see that you actually, sort of, triggered that narrative of constraint that is now the foundation for what youíre dealing with today as an adult.Ē And then we undo that foundation, as I said earlier, by recognizing that itís not a truth.

Katie: Can you speak more to those 10, like, prisons of the subconscious? Is that what you call them? I know, these are part of your systems, but can you explain more, maybe just give a few examples of what those are?

Peter: I could, but Iím not going to because thatís my book, and Iíve already given you a couple, right, like so not feeling worthy, not feeling safe, you know, like, so, itís the same mechanism for all of them. Theyíre just different constraints that we have. So, you know, thatís gonna be part of a really comprehensive course that Iím gonna do for people so that they can go through at their own pace. Itís also overwhelming if somebody would look at all of them. Itís enough for somebody to understand, ďWow, Iíve really lived in this world of not feeling like Iím enough, the lack of worthiness.Ē I guarantee you not one of your listeners is not gonna be able to, you know, relate to that at some level. They may have transcended it, maybe theyíve matured, theyíve developed a sense of self-confidence over time, theyíve done the work, but for most people, if theyíre not in it, they can certainly remember when they were.

Like, even for me, you know, itís like, Iíve done so much of this, Iíve developed the systems, Iíve been doing my work for, you know, two-plus decades, and I can still remember where the compensation of trying to impress someone, a girlfriend, or a group that I was speaking to was being driven by the feeling of not being enough, right? So, thatís what Iím saying, to me, theyíre primal, everyoneís got them. Itís just, like you accurately said, talk therapy, traditional therapy, life coaches, you know, spiritual teachers, theyíre really just sort of fluffing around on the top with whatever someone thinks of, you know, their problem is. Like anxiety, itís like, okay, well, then maybe you should meditate, you know, or do grounding. I mean, Iím not saying that either of those things arenít good for you, but thatís sort of no different than allopathic medicine, which is why at sick care, they donít want people to be well, they just want you to keep taking drugs, right? So itís sort of a quick fix that doesnít actually get to the root cause of whether itís, like, physiological or psychological that, you know, is creating somebodyís suffering.

Katie: Iíll make sure there are links as well to your courses and to your works, people can find you and, of course, your book when it comes out. Iíve also seen you talk about the power of imagination, and Iíd love for you to elaborate on how that comes into play.

Peter: Yeah, I mean, I think this whole construct really is dependent on imagination. Itís just that most peopleís imagination is pretty shitty, right? Like, I mean, and Iím not talking about its capacity, but the content of it, right? So, as I was speaking to earlier, like when someone says, ďOh, this is too good to be true,Ē or, ďThis will never happen for me,Ē both of those statements are imaginative, right? They might have evidence from their history that allows them to feel like thatís the way it is. But itís not a truth, theyíre actually creating that. This is why again, coming back to language, when you declare something, itís a form of imagination. Like, when you say something, youíre basically creating an existence. Like, even as I was using the example of like the wife and the mother-in-law, itís like, letís imagine that sheís, you know, a pain in her ass or whatever, like thatÖbut in her world, thatís a reality. No, thatís an imagined view you have of another human being whoís doing the best they can. Iím not saying that theyíre angelic and that they treat you like gold. But, you know, to say that is an imaginative statement. Itís just one that is, unfortunately, gonna create a lot of hostility and, you know, suffering between those two people.

So imagination really is sort of a birthright. Look at kids, right? Like, again, obviously, youíve got all your teachers in your house there where, you know, they have the most expansive imagination, right, itís like going to the moon as maybe some sort of really grandiose view of their future, or itís just being a train driver, you know, itís like, which to a parent might seem like, you know, a little bit disappointing, but itís still imagined, right? Itís like, youíre 3, you know, itís like, you can barely get on a train, let alone drive it, right? But thatís the beauty of, I feel, the human spirit is that weíre naturally curious. And then youíre going back again, tying all these points together, noticing or recognizing the life is uncertain. That is the rich tapestry upon which we get to use our imagination to create something. So, until such time you realize that you are using your imagination to create a life, but unfortunately, for most people, the life theyíre creating is a reaction to something they donít want, so now theyíre confined by their history.

When you start to really recognize that your history is your history, itís done, youíve reconciled it, let it go, and now start to step into a new construct that realizes the future is a blank canvas, and then be responsible for the way that you use your imagination to create something. Now, to a lot of people that may seem audacious if one said, you know, ďIím gonna be a millionaire by the end of 2022.Ē Someone said that, you know, they may have no clue how theyíre gonna do that. And a lot of their friends might say, ďYouíre an idiot for even saying that.Ē And they might start to really doubt themselves. But that is an imagined statement is as real as somebody being worried that theyíre gonna be redundant by the end of 2022, right? Theyíre both imagined, why? Because itís frickiní middle of September 2021. I donít know what the hell is gonna happen tomorrow, right? But you can use your language in a way that is empowering or disempowering. And thatís still imagination. Itís just most people are using their words against their imagination in a way that is sadly disempowering, and just reinforces what their ego wants to be right about.

Katie: I love that you brought up having my best teachers in my house. Iíve always thought of them that way. The vast majority of the people listening are parents. And as you have been saying all of this, I think it probably a lot of us are realizing patterns in our own lives as adults, and probably having a lot of lightbulb moments. Itís been building me to ask you this whole time, for all of us who are parents and who recognize patterns that came from our parents, likely out of love, they didnít do these things on purpose, how can we be mindful of our language, and our patterns, and our interactions with our children as parents? Because like you said, they come out of the box with amazing imagination and creativity, and openness. How can we help them preserve that and maybe not fall into some of these same patterns?

Peter: Itís a beautiful question. And I can hear, you know, your commitment as a beautiful loving mom. And I love that because I think we need more of that, especially again, in this day and age where kids seem to be a target for, you know, the darker forces out there. So, thereís a couple of things. One, I always use this expression, and itís not mine, I got it from a yoga teacher friend of mine who was about to be a dad. And so, in anticipation of his wife giving birth, he asked a few of his friends, like, you know, ďIím gonna be a new dad, like, whatís your advice?Ē And he shared this in a yoga class that I was attending. And he said that his buddy who was a father of two said to him, ďJust remember that your kids will rarely succeed at listening to you, but they will always succeed in becoming you.Ē

And it was, you know, for me, given the way that my mind works and the lens through which I listen, you know, it really just reinforced the fact that we, for the most part, especially as children, we learn by mimicking, and beyond mimicking behavior, we mimic energy. So if a parent is distressed, you know, in a place of suffering, depression, denial, living in a pretense, pretending that the marriage is great when itís not or, you know, whatever energy the parent is carrying, that child may not consciously understand the behavioral adaptations, but they will adopt the energy so thatís normal, right?

So you look at a lot of the people who sadly are in prison. They arenít bad people. They just didnít ever get taught love, kindness, compassion, you know, they were raised by a single parent who was a meth addict. You know, dad was in prison, and their only semblance of communion or community they got was with the local gang. So they werenít being shown, taught any sense of self-worth from a parent because the parent didnít have any themselves. And yet, their means of forming a sense of belonging was that they had to sell drugs and perform crime to bring their sense of value to the gang so that they could just hold on to some sense of companionship. So thatís all they learned, right? So that doesnít make them bad people. Itís incredibly sad, and why I love to help whoever I can and bring compassion to the fact that everyoneís doing the best they can.

But, you know, so for the parents out there, recognize, you know, hopefully, all your listeners arenít in such, you know, awkward or difficult situations, but who are they in terms of their relationship to themselves? Are they coming from a place of freedom? Are they coming from a place of self-worth? Are they coming from a place of kindness and compassion to themselves doing the best they can? You know, a lot of parents, especially mums, you know, just get such a bad rap. And itís like, the amount of judgment that a mother particularly will put on themselves, and then the concern for, ďAm I doing the right thing?Ē Or the fact that you just had to quickly go to a drive-thru just to get your kids some food, even though psychologically, you know, itís not the best food, and then you berate yourself. You know, itís like, sometimes you just got to do what you got to do and just get rid of like, the overcritical, self-analysis thatís beating the shit out of yourself. So thatís one part.

The other part is just, you know, maintain as much as possible the joy of possibility, right? Like, really encourage kids to think out loud in a way that theyíre not thwarted, because so often what happens is a kid will say something that does seem outlandish, it does seem, you know, a little bit unrealistic, and a parent will just shoot it down straight away. And so, ratherÖit may not even be practical, right? Iím not denying the fact that kids donít say stuff that is just, you know, preposterous, but donít shut down them because then they start to lose the energy of possibility. Maybe start to inquire as to how would they do that? Like, ďThatís amazing. I love that idea. Like, How do you think you could do that? Like, how could you become that person in the future?Ē So you allow, you actually fuel their curiosity while simultaneously inviting them to start to become responsible, right? So versus just saying, ďNo, you canít do that, thatís not possible,Ē which is really like just a complete affront to the energy of imagination. Like, be with them, join them, listen, go, you know, ďWow, that sounds cool. Like, did you hear that from someone? Like, do you know how you could do that?Ē And maybe play the game with them of, like, start to invent, ďHow could we actually make that happen?Ē

So really, itís, point one, you know, as a human, and adult, and a parent, do the work, you know, recognize where you are stuck, and you keep sort of passing on the legacy of inadequacy or insecurity to your children and stop doing that. And then number two, as much as you can, engage the children in the joy of, you know, imagination itself, whilst obviously teaching them the importance of being responsible for the life you created. Itís one thing to have imagination and desires. Itís another thing to actually be in action about it, right? I say a lot of people want things, but you donít get what you want by just wanting it, you know, you got to get off your ass and do something, right? So that would be what I say, you know, as two primary points for parents out there.

Katie: I love both of those. And I think just as parents do things out of love for their children, in most cases, of course, there are Iím sure exceptions of horrible things that happen, but, and mothers are doing the best they can, like you pointed out, I think similarly, our psyche does what it does to protect us, like, our psyche is not sitting there trying to make us unhappy. So even when these patterns present, itís actually there for a reason. And I think often, like, we get kind of confused and stuck on the idea of happiness maybe, and I wanted to circle back to this. In that book, can you kind of talk about the nature of true happiness and how that ties in?

Peter: Sure. I mean, itís a big topic, you know, and happiness is thrown around there with, you know, TED Talks, and books, and all sorts of stuff, and people think they wanna be happy. Again, I look at happiness as, you know, itís transitory, right? Like, I would look something deeper like, which is real contentment or joy, somethingís a little more profound. Happiness to me is much more subjective. Like, youíre happy because somebody said something nice about your outfit or, you know, you want something thatís important to you in terms of sports and you feel happy. But, you know, thereís this very slippery slope where people become so caught up in the world of dualism where itís like, well, if thereís happiness then just by virtue of the fact that we live in a dualistic construct, there has to be sadness. So if youíre gonna pursue happiness, then you also have to recognize sadness comes with that. But you canít have nights without, like, day, right? And you canít have inhale without exhale.

So for me, real happiness is can you transcend both as just simply part of the human experience? I remember years and years ago, ďYoga Journal,Ē asked me to write an article about the pursuit for eternal happiness. And Iíd actually have to find it. Itís been a while since Iíve seen it. But I was saying how the whole thing is redundant and moot and actually impossible because, you know, if you did find ďeternal happiness,Ē then at what point do you no longer know that youíre happy because you havenít had any kind of reflection through its counterpart, right? Does that make sense? Itís like, you know, if youíre in a state for so long and thereís no perspective, thereís no point of relativity, then you sort of become numb to the experience itself. So, I think happiness is fun. You know, itís a great part of being human. But I would invite people to make just as much space for sadness.

Like, I always talk about making room for all your emotions, thatís a real happy human being, thatís a joyousÖlike, yeah, like, God, it hurts, and itís almost like I enjoy the grief of missing a loved one because I love them so much. But itís beautiful, like that grief is an extension of love, right? So I donít wanna deny my capacity to also have what we might think of as more unfavorable emotions, but they are nonetheless there. You know, itís just when people try to resist them and they only wantÖ ďI only one want the good emotions.Ē Iím like, ďAll right, well, let me know how that works out.Ē When Iíve done talks, like someone comes up to me and they say, you know, like, ďOh, yeah, Iím, like, really believing that anythingís possible.Ē And Iím like, ďYeah, thatís beautiful. You could get cancer next week.Ē And theyíre like, ďWait, what?Ē Iím like, ďWell, you just said, anythingís possible.Ē ďYeah, yeah, yeah, but thatís not what I meant.Ē ďOh, all right. So what you meant is that only good things are possible.Ē Iím like, ďOkay, yeah, good luck with that life.Ē

Katie: Thatís another great example of the power of language and the meaning of words, I love when you call those things out.

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And I wanna also make sure I respect your time. Well, this has been lovely and I would love to have you back on at some point. Another question I love to ask for the end of interviews is if thereís a book or a number of books that have had a profound impact on your life? And if so, what they are and why?

Peter: I mean, so many books. I think thatís really been my form of education. There are all these traditional Eastern philosophy books really steeped in true spirituality like gurus that wereÖnot gurus, like, that they have a show on NBC and they can help you put together a really fancy plant or houseplants or something guru. Like, you know, really the spiritual gurus who transcended suffering. So, the one book that comes to mind, itís funny now that youíre asking because I mentioned it once on a podcast, one of my first ones, and then all of a sudden everyone was writing in like, ďOh my god, like this book is so heavy and difficult.Ē Iím like, ďYeah, thatís because I previously only recommended it to three people.Ē Because itís a tome, you know, itís a tough read, but Iím gonna answer your question authentically, which is itís a book called ďI am thatĒ by Sri Nisargadatta. And my version is so dogeared. Like, it literally has, just in my own scribbles, probably another book or two in it just by virtue of how much Iíve written inside it, you know, with my own revelations and insights as I was reading it. So Iíd say that sort of at the top of the pile. Thereís a multitude of other books but, you know, thatís the one that really stands out.

Katie: I love it. Thatís a new recommendation on this podcast. Iím gonna order it right now.

Peter: Not for the faint of heart.

Katie: I love it. Most of my education is also from books. Iím excited to delve in. And for people listening, Iím guessing you probably struck a deep chord with a lot of people today. For people who want to keep learning more and to hear more about your approach. Whereís the great starting place?

Peter: Good. Well, I hope so, and Iím always, you know, humbled by the opportunity to share my work on platforms like yours. So thank you for having me on. And I equally am flattered by the people that take time to listen. So thank you, listener. They can find me on Instagram @petercroneofficial, and then my website is just my name petercrone.com, C-R-O-N-E. And then we do have Facebook. I think itís just Peter Crone Ė The Mind Architect. So yeah, love for people to jump in, and join us, and follow, and, you know, I tend to put out just content versus selfies. So thereís usually some value in my feed versus like, ďHey, look at me in front of a fancy car or something.Ē Not my style.

Katie: Iíll put all those links in the show notes for you guys listening while you are driving or exercising, wellnessmama.fm. I also have a recap of our conversation here, so you guys can find Peter and keep learning more. But thank you so much for your time. I know that youíre very busy. And I very much enjoyed this interview. Thank you.

Peter: Youíre welcome. Thank you for having me on. And hopefully, now you can be a little bit more at peace as it relates to your environment and not having to control things, which you probably had to learn with six kids anyway.

Katie: They have been my best teachers, absolutely. And, as always, thanks to all of you guys for listening, for sharing your most valuable resources, your time, energy, and attention with us today. Weíre both so grateful that you did, and I hope that you will join me again on the next episode of the ďWellness MamaĒ podcast.

If youíre enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to leave a rating or review on iTunes for me? Doing this helps more people to find the podcast, which means even more moms and families could benefit from the information. I really appreciate your time, and thanks as always for listening.

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